Hello Ladies,
How is the weather where you are?
We have had the most gloriously clear autumn days here followed by a few days of soaking rain. Life is all about contrasts!!
It would be great if we could have a few more suggestions for our ever expanding book list, so be brave.
Please..... if The Slap gets too much just say so, I know the reviewer says "fearless" that's one word for it I guess!!!!!
I'm off on a road trip to Sydney tomorrow to visit family, another of "Ivars' and Nancy's empty nest adventures" should be fun!!!!!!!
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I think we are really getting the hang of this!!! My copy of Unless is due in at the library next week so I will have some summer reading t...
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by Katie, The brother of a dear friend of mine witnessed the suicide of a friend/classmate inside his school during normal school hours. ...
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Hello Ladies, How is the weather where you are? We have had the most gloriously clear autumn days here followed by a few days of soaking ...
Oh by the way "Happy Anniversary" to us all.
ReplyDeleteJust over 12 months ago we were all saying goodbye in Greece, who knew we would be discussing feminism and ancient midwives 1 year later!!!!!
YAY for us!!!
Thanks for reminding us of Greece and of how far we've come, Nancy. And thank you so much for taking responsibility for this club. Do my eyes/memory deceive me or are we on to our third "backdrop" for want of a better term? I like it. I liked the last one, too, but I don't think I remarked on it - no doubt too full of what I wanted to say about the reading.
ReplyDeleteVery briefly on "The Red Tent" - a mini series would indeed have been a good idea - so many stories; and the need to preserve one's own precarious position in Jacob's society would prevent too much female solidarity. Male protection was essential for social and physical survival. You'd have to be very desperate and/or very confident, or have the support of other men, to maintain a strong unity in all circumstances.
But I'm pontificating. The real point of me writing now is that it's my turn to suggest book titles, so I'm recommending:
Dinner at the Homesick Restaurant: Anne Tyler
Case Histories: Kate Atkinson
I had thought of "The Help", and we can certainly go for that if you'd prefer, or indeed in addition. I crossed it off the original list as I thought maybe you might have seen the film (I haven't) but then that could be a reason for reading it if you haven't already.
"Case Histories" was made into a BBC TV mini series, but I didn't get to see that either - we still haven't got a television.
Let me know what you think about these choices, ladies. They can be entirely replaced if they are not suitable.
Meanwhile, have a good trip, Nancy. I'm looking forward to "The Slap". It's the next one when I'll come unstuck, I fear.
Sue
Hello! This has been so much fun! I love the book backdrop too. The weather here has been bouncing back and forth between Spring and Summer. Franklin made souvlaki this week because he misses Greece so much!
ReplyDeleteMy book suggestions are:
Mao's Last Dancer by Li Cunxin
The Book Thief by Markus Zusak
I am Nujood, Age 10 and Divorced by Nujood Ali
We need to talk about Kevin by Lionel Shriver
If neither of you wants to read Nujood's book or Shriver's book, that's fine with me. Both subjects may be a bit intense. (You did suggest we be brave Nancy! haha)
Sue, I have not seen The Help, so if we want to add that to the list that's fine by me :-) Your other choices sound good too.
In other news, Franklin and I just purchased our first home!!! I hope to be moved in before the end of May. So I will do my best to keep up with our reading!
Congratulations, Katie and Franklin. Jay and I wish you lots of luck, and, above all, lots of happiness in the new home. There will be so many things to think about, to attend to - you'll need lots of patience and strength, too. Enjoy yourselves. I envy you the souvlaki - and I do wonder how Ruli is managing. Volatile situation there right now.
ReplyDeleteThe book titles sound fine to me. You and Nancy are right -it's good to stretch ourselves. Thank you for devising the list.
I'm enjoying The Slap. Hope you are enjoying your travels, Nancy.
Sue
Katie,
ReplyDeleteIvars and I add our congratulations to Sue and Jay's, how wonderful for you both
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The new book titles sound great, any preferences in the order I add them, or shall I just surprise you!!
Our little road trip was so much fun, lots of dirt roads, National Parks and waterfalls. It was good to see Iv's family as well,[he is the quiet one!!!!!!!!!!!!], so you can imagine it was quite boisterous and a lot of fun.
As far as I'm concerned, Nancy, you can just surprise us.
ReplyDeleteI hope you are adjusting to being able to get a word in edgeways. Glad it was a good trip. Spring is finally arriving here, so Jay is decorating - both of us putting up the new bathroom cabinet was a potentially marriage-ending process. You have much to look forward to, Katie!
Still enjoying The Slap. Look forward to discussing it - and to hearing whether this is typical of Australian society.
Sue
I feel that this may bring about one of our most interesting conversations yet. There is no spoiler in what I’ve written here. So feel free to read away! I think that this question needs to be answered first before we can tackle the novel. So let me ask:
ReplyDeleteDo you think children should be physically reprimanded?
I personally believe it is ok to smack a child who is misbehaving. But I will clarify some limitations with hitting a child. First and most importantly is that an adult should never excessively hurt a child. Children are smaller and weaker; they can only physically handle so much. To beat a child senseless is wrong. An adult should know that smacking a child with the full force of their abilities is wrong. Second, I believe it is wrong to physically reprimand someone else’s child. If you do not know how a child is disciplined by their parents, you should not discipline them as you would your own child.
I never remember being hit as a child. But I do remember seeing my brothers get smacked a few times. I guess seeing that taught me that mom would hit you if you did something wrong. However, my mother never beat any of us. One slap, a stern word, and that, was that. Physical action was not mom’s sole means of discipline. We were sent to our rooms, we had TV privileges taken away, or an event (such as birthday parties or a play date) would be canceled as alternative means of punishment. But we always knew that it wasn’t beneath mamma to give you a good swat across the bottom should you deserve it.
As a teenager I babysat a lot. And no matter how bad the children got, I would never hit them. This was because I felt that I had no right to do so. Only their parents had the authority to correct behavior through corporal means. Even now with my nieces, nephews, and godchildren. I never hit them. I will find out what their parents’ method of discipline is first, and then use that accordingly. My one nephew, for example, gets put in time-out when he is bad. A slap on the hand is acceptable but only under dire circumstances and as a last resort. If he misbehaves while I’m watching him, I will put him in time-out.
I look forward to your opinions on this question
Some very interesting comments, Katie. I think it's wrong to hit a child, too. As a teacher, I could hardly think anything else. Certainly, we were not allowed to touch a child and if I had I'm sure the parents would have had something to say. Observation also suggests that children who are regularly hit will resort to violence themselves. But pupils in schools in which I taught in Singapore were publicly caned. This was sickening, but I can't tell you what impact it had on their behaviour. None of my students ever suffered this punishment. However, I do know caning was often counter productive as those who were caned often became heroes.
ReplyDeleteBut I have never been a parent. When looking after nephews, however, my hand sometimes itched. I can remember my godson deliberately jumping in puddles to soak those around him. I was tired and his enjoyment of the knowledge he was irritating others was infuriating. However, he was distracted and we got home without any damage being done. But I can truly sympathise with parents who do give in to frustration.
I've finished the book, so I'll move on to make some comments on it. This may take more than one entry.
It was certainly a good read. Took no time at all, Nancy – a real page-turner. The plot and the structure, giving the reader so many characters’ viewpoints, contributed enormously to the book’s page-turning qualities. And what amazing characters – vivid, powerful, dramatic. Can’t say I’d want many of them on my Christmas card list, but descriptions of their life styles were fascinating. They are life styles of which I have no personal experience, but the whole society was very convincingly portrayed. It was almost shockingly physical – violence, sex, drugs.
The discussion of parenting continued throughout the book, covering generations and sub-cultures, was deeply depressing. Studying the novel for an answer to the question “What makes a good parent?” is a salutary experience. But then, perhaps it’s a silly question given the answer to it must vary over time, place and family. Who do we think was the most successful parent? Richie’s Mum, Trace? Connie’s aunt, Tasha? How liberal should parents/societies be? To what extent can a child be blamed for his/her actions? Is parenting something that can be left to parents? (My government does not think so.)
Continuing my rather long contribution to the discussion, are we all the victims of our parents? Larkin, widely regarded in the U.K. as being one of the best poets of the 20th century, thought so. You might enjoy this, ladies:
ReplyDeleteThis Be The Verse…
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.
I found the younger generation (Connie and her friends) the most sympathetic – without the sexual and racial prejudices of their parents – but that’s a false generalisation because Rocco and Hugo will have problems with women given what Hector, Gary and Rosie have exposed them to. And the drug culture was frightening. It appalls me to think how out-of-touch I must have been with the experiences of my students. This is a book I’d really like to have on the 16-18 year old students’ curriculum. A good task would be to re-visit some of the characters a decade after the events outlined in the novel. How many would have suffered an untimely end?
I’d like to have heard more from Hector’s wife, Sandi. After a broken jaw, why is she still with him? It’s clever the way we learn more and more about Hector’s violent nature. To begin with, one had some sympathy with his treatment of Hugo: but Rosie may have been right – did Hector enjoy hitting Hugo?
So many questions were raised, demonstrating no single answer can be applied to every situation. That seems an obvious statement, but governments and educationalists pretend that there are easy answers. Laws are introduced based on the assumption that one size fits all. There again, how else can governments operate? An intelligent, sympathetic understanding of individual situations is required and in the very nature of things that’s not possible. (Indeed, in the case of my government, I often feel they must be governing another country.)
Thanks for this book, Nancy – it emphasised the narrowness of my own existence.
Hello Ladies,
ReplyDeleteIt seems I am last to make a contribution to our discussion as usual,I feel my life is just getting busier.
I spent the first few chapters of the book shocked and embarrassed that it was me that suggested such a sexually graphic and foul mouthed book but then I got over myself and settled in for a very entertaining read.
I enjoyed such a contemporary story although I am not sure how indicative it is of Australian society, however I do not live in inner city Anywhere so I lack that experience. Christos Tsiolkas does live in Melbourne and is Greek/Australian so I can only imagine he may know a little of what he speaks in his storylines of Greek/Australian families and culture. My only reference to that is as an outsiders experience in the Latvian community in Sydney in which Ivars grew up. The similarities of family loyalties and racial prejudices brought with them from WW2 experiences I imagine would be not unlike many cultures that are forcefully uprooted from their homelands.
The character I disliked the most was Harry. His chapter in the story was so rough and violent. I feel the way Tsiolkas portrayed his violent inner thoughts gave insight into a character that was so very unpleasant. His life, for all appearance seemed so together, beautiful wife, beautiful house, great son,successful businessman, from the outside he had it all but so very dark and so very different as aspects of his life became known to us.
Now to THE SLAP, should he? I believe definitely no but as insights to his character were revealed it is obvious that would have been his reaction.
I feel I need to make a clear distinction here on my views on smacking, slapping and belting. I smacked my children when they were little on the bottom or hand. As they became older and understood their actions I found other forms of discipline way more effective such as loss of privileges or removal of a favourite toy for a period of time. I found I was the one who benefited most from time outs. Timeout for me to scream into a pillow mainly to regain composure, children learn early which buttons to push for maximum effect. I guess I was lucky as my children grew up we had very few discipline problems.
I would never smack someone else's children it is not my place.
I do not believe in slapping across the face or belting [as in using any form of belts, canes, jug cords or egg lifters, yes experience talking} or bashing anyone, child or adult.
Sue, I enjoyed your poem, perhaps a little cynical for me as being our parent representative in the group I have enjoyed and still enjoying my parenting experience very much and rate it as one of my greatest achievements, not to say at times it hasn't been frustrating, exhausting, challenging, irritating, sanity-testing, overwhelming...need I go on?
There are so many different aspects to this story, it has just been made into an award winning miniseries with each chapter handled by a different director, my friend Marianne who originally suggested the book to me is lending me the series I will let you know if it lives up to the book.
I have this nagging yet embarrassing need to say I liked the character of Hector, I am not sure why. It could be his guilt ridden break down in Bali or his commitment to family or I could be shallow and it was just that he is so good looking. I clarify by saying I don't like everything about him. Who are your favourites?
Indeed, Nancy, the poet is regarded a brilliant but with an unfortunate personality, to say the least. But he did create a wonderful collection of jazz music, which redeems him somewhat in my eyes. And my Mum would agree with you - parenting is her greatest achievement. We have a two year old staying with us at the moment, and my admiration for parents knows no bounds. 24/7 attention demanded. I live in fear of the child falling off a chair, starving to death, or any number of other dreadful outcomes, whilst trying to look as though I'm absolutely calm.
ReplyDeleteI think Connie and her aunt are my favourites. One can only hope that everything turns out well for them - and it says a lot that I think of their future as real people. It's the drugs: how on earth does one handle that? Alcohol, whilst probably a bigger killer, seems an easier substance to deal with. A generational thing perhaps?
I feel suddenly very old. All this youth and energy, strong emotions . . . I'm just looking forward to a brief spell of peace and quiet when our visitors leave.
I disliked being in Harry's head. He is a character who gave me the creeps. His whole attitude toward anyone who did not agree with him was completely distasteful. Sue, I don't think I'd say that Harry liked hitting Hugo, but I do believe he felt his actions were justified. But I can agree he does have some anger issues that need to be worked on.
ReplyDeleteOne problem, I had with the novel, was the rampant drug use. Connie's character is approximately 10years my junior but has had more experience with the drug scene then I could ever dream of. Her experiences make me feel extraordinarily sheltered. Is this novel true to current city Australian life styles? If so what terrible pressure on today’s youth! Connie also caused me much confusion in this novel. First she said Hector raped her and then it seemed that she might be a virgin and she recanted her statement about Hector. It left me very perplexed about what actually occurred between Hector and Connie. If Hector was willing to confess about one love affair, why didn’t he confess about his interactions with Connie?
Sue, in answer to your question, I think the most successful parent was Aisha. I think Aisha had a good parenting style. Stern but patient, hard working and loving. While I know this is just a novel, I felt that Melissa and Adam had the best chances of a growing into responsible mature adults. On the other side of the scale, I felt Rosie and Gary were lousy parents. I felt that Hugo was allowed to run wild. He lacked any form of discipline and Rosie coddled him too much. Gary seemed completely uninterested in Hugo until there was a prospect of money or power, or whatever, from suing Harry.
I have to say the character I most respected was Tasha. I can’t image suddenly going from a single woman to a guardian of a 16 year old. The responsibility and the dedication is remarkable.
However, I’m a little hesitant to say that she was a good parent. It was kind of her to encourage Connie to have some fun in between all of her studies but I can’t say my mother would have ever let me stay out that late or knowingly allowed me to drink and do drugs. But she and Connie had a good rapport. And again I was impressed by her decision to take in the child of a long-lost brother.
This was a good book and didn’t take me long at all Nancy!
Hello Ladies,
ReplyDeleteI hope all is well in your neck of the woods.
I was also shocked at the drug use mentioned in the book so.....I went to those who should know, my 18 and 19 year old uni student children. Interestingly enough Gracie seemed to think alcohol was much more of a problem with younger people. In her experience the age children began excessive drinking was getting younger and said it was not uncommon for children aged between 13-15 to be drunk at her high school parties, drugs seemed to be just a few of the same kids all the time. Since beginning Uni there has been a few over-doses in her student village. In her words 'its here,and easy to get if you want it'. She then claimed she has never wanted it! I can only hope. It is a scary thing to let your chickens loose in the big wide world!!!
Katie, when I read Hector's confession I thought he was actually talking about Connie, the story is so filled with half truths from the characters that I believed he was changing his story to Aisha to protect not only Connie but also himself. Aisha's confession about her affair also left out the fact that she did indeed sleep with Art. Is is true of human nature to only tell part of the truth sometimes to protect ourselves?
Who do I think is the most successful parent? I find this really difficult to answer as what is it that is the most important thing to a child? What pressures of culture and society do we conform to at the expense of our child's happiness? What makes a happy successful adult? I believe that every parent sets out to do their best with the skills available to them, so what happpens? Maybe Larkin's poem needs mentioning here!!!
I like Aisha's style of parenting although I don't really like her self obsessed character. Richies mum Tracey seems to be very loving and accepting. Rocco seems to be a very happy child so I guess there is good and bad in all.
Christos Tsiolkas seems to write with a great knowledge of this microcosm of society, I feel maybe parts are true for all of us but as a snapshot of the whole country I don't think so.
Hello ladies
ReplyDeleteWell, this novel has certainly generated some discussion. I thought Hector was referring to Connie, too. Strangely enough, I had more sympathy with him than I did with Aisha. She is a woman to be much admired, but I had little empathy with her. Clearly, a good Mum, and I do agree with Katie that her children are given all they need, but one does wonder about Adam's relationship with Hector. It probably won't get easier as Adam gets older. And Hector will be so protective of his daughter. Aisha will have a lot on her plate.
One thing about parenting - it's never done with. I am 62, and my 88 year old parents have called this morning to make sure I'm O.K. in the absence of my husband (currently with his nephew's sister's family, a duty from which an allergic reaction to sodium meta-bisulphide has released me). I fear they might call out the police if I fail to answer the `phone. And they don't know anything about the allergic reaction!
Thanks for doing some research, Nancy. I think Gracie's view of the problems with alcohol are relevant in the U.K. The concentration of pubs in the centre of some British towns makes them no-go areas at the weekends. Police presence in Hull at the weekend is in itself alarming. It could be that drugs are mixed up with the alcohol, but I'm happy to say I know nothing about it. I should do some research, too.
In my little microcosm of society, we are very protected. Long may it remain so.
It's the beginning of June, Katie, so you have probably moved into your new house. Hope you and Franklin are enjoying it. Don't work too hard. Congratulations again to you both.