The
brother of a dear friend of mine witnessed the suicide of a
friend/classmate inside his school during normal school hours. While
this incident could have resulted in more casualties than a single
life, it was no less traumatic to my friend’s brother. The bulk of
the details of this suicide are mostly unknown to me but with the
seeming rise in school shootings (here in the US), this novel sparks
a great curiosity in me.
This
novel was completed in 2001 but rejected by many publishers. It
wasn’t published until 2003. Was all that rejection due to the dark
nature of this subject?
Lionel
Shriver talks to ‘the guardian’ about this book saying:
“Kevin
is a dark book, and many of those initial rejections objected that
its narrator, Eva, is "unattractive": a woman uneasy about
pregnancy, who feels alarmingly blank after childbirth, and fails to
form the bond with her boy that we like to imagine is as instinctive
as closing the epiglottis when we swallow. The novel breaks one of
the last taboos (and how amazing that at such a late date I found a
taboo still standing): a mother disliking her son.”
As
we read, what are our thoughts on the idea of a parent disliking a
child? Do we agree that this maybe a societal taboo? Being from
separate cultures and countries, how does the world view incidents
such as the one that occurs in this novel?
Hello Ladies,
ReplyDeleteKatie it is great to hear from you and that all is well with you and yours. Your book selections sound terrific I always get excited about how many great books there are out there to read.
If you haven't finished the book, ladies, I should warn you that there may be some spoilers in these comments.
ReplyDeleteEverywhere I went with this book, people remarked on it. They all knew about it – but no-one had read it. Clearly, I have family and friends who cannot bear too much reality. And, after reading it, I’m not sure I can either.
Partly, it was my fault. After a few “letters” I recognized that my initial assumption that Eva was writing to Franklin because the relationship had fallen apart after “Thursday” was not right, and I read the end first. (I’m sorry to say that I do this more often than I should, particularly in crime fiction – I read much more slowly and appreciatively when I know who’s done it.) So, I got the massacre before he was out of diapers – in itself a delayed event.
I lost sympathy with Eva from that point – there was an implied criticism of Franklin’s possible response to Kevin killing Celia – that he paused a moment, he could not believe what he was witnessing and, even then, he wanted appreciation for his efforts to be a good father. Or perhaps it wasn’t criticism, but an honest appraisal from Eva of the futility of Franklin’s efforts. I know Eva’s function in the novel is to present a point of view, not for the reader to identify with her; but in a first person narrative, it helps to have some sympathy with the narrator. I felt she was trying to justify her actions, praise her superior judgment: “I told you so.” On other occasions, she presented a picture of Franklin as stupid: ”Dad the Dupe”. Maybe so, but he was trying.
And if anyone was stupid, it was Eva. She should have left with Celia as soon as she decided Kevin had blinded Celia, if not well before. To give as a reason “it didn’t occur to me” just seems ridiculous – especially given the lychee and the masturbation stuff.
I realize it’s possible to interpret Kevin’s actions as those of a boy who only wanted his mother’s admiration and attention; but it’s also possible to read this as a text in support of the idea that some children are born evil. Eva recognized a “dominant emotional tone” in Kevin at birth, and describes it as violent and vile. I’d like to think this undermines Eva’s credibility as a rational mother from the start. But I haven’t given birth and other readers may accept this as a normal, even insightful, perception. I just hope it’s not as simple as that. I’d like to think she needed some support and given that support it might all have worked out differently.
There is, apparently, such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy: if you expect certain things of a person, they will fulfill your expectations. A bit simple, I know, but there may be some truth in it.
In answer to your question, Katie, I don’t think a mother disliking a child is a societal taboo – it might be seen as the mother’s psychological problem which should be addressed – it might even result in the child being taken away, but I think it’s accepted it happens. I think that parents may well dislike a child’s behaviour, which doesn’t mean they don’t love the child. Parenting is a very complicated issue, which I’m really not qualified to speak on. Suffice it to say that it’s a job I’m not sure I would have had the maturity to do well.
I had already read "The Post Birthday World". Shriver is a very good writer and in "We Need to Talk About Kevin" demonstrated incredible insight into human behaviour: the huge cast of minor characters and their motivations was wonderfully drawn. But how the author lived with her central characters for as long as it must have taken to write the book I can’t imagine.
I’m glad I read it, but I’m glad I’m returning it to the library.
Hello Ladies,
ReplyDeleteWOW, thanks Katie I would never have read this book if it wasn't on our list. It has been over a week since I've finished and I am still conflicted about my reactions. I am fairly sure I didn't like it, as I logically argue, how can I like a book when I dislike all the characters within it [maybe with the exception of the mother in the Claverack waiting room Eva has a conversation with]? yet, I felt compelled to continue reading, a little like driving past a road accident,you don't want to look yet can't help yourself.
If I have no favourite characters, then I am equally at a loss as to whom I disliked most. Arghhhh....Katie ,what a challenging novel !!!
Obviously I have no sympathy or kindness for Kevin [a great example of born evil]. I find the premise that a cold and unloving mother creates a teenage mass murderer ridiculous. Our world would be completely overun with teenage killers if this where the case.
In answer to your question Katie, of disliking your child and societies views on this. If society allowed parents to be honest, and as parents make up a large portion of society, I find this ironic, I feel most of us would admit to times of dislike for our children, as they freely admit to disliking us [often]. This is dislike of actions, behaviour and responses. I've always felt children need to recognise and be responsible for them. My own children certainly knew and know when I've disliked their behaviour, but they never doubt my love. It is such an important difference that makes more whole adults. - OK I'm off my soapbox!!
This like and love distinction isn't what Eva was talking about however, she was initially speaking of indifference, then fear of her child. Not only society, but other mothers can be very harsh on each other.
Speaking of which, on to my dislike of Eva!! I found her in her own words and Kevin's pg 328 "Imperious, self-righteous-condescending-and superior." I'd like to add my own self-indulgent. Her character confused me. When I read of Celia's and Franklin's murder, I was shocked, I didn't see it coming, but it left me confused as to Eva's motivations for visiting and maintaining contact with Kevin. She was claiming she didn't love him ,then, he murdered the two people she did love....I don't get it, and I don't get when Kevin starts to show concern for himself going to adult prison and she perceives he is sorry, suddenly she loves him. Her character just feels so unbelievable to me. I feel as though Lionel Shriver tried to amalgamate everything she'd heard of parenting into Eva and Franklin and I found it too conflicting and confusing.
So, I lost interest in Eva and her pontificating. I was interested in the question addressed so often in the novel. WHY? Why do these mass murderers do it? I'm sure it's not as simple as Eva says on page 197. "Yearning to feel special, I was determined to capture someone's attention, even if I had to use the murder of nine people to get it "
There were a lot of slurs against the USA and Americans in the novel, how do you feel about that Katie ? USA is certainly not the only country these sorts of killings occur, it seemed to be portrayed that way. The recent tragedy in Norway and years ago a lone killer stalked around Port Arthur in Tasmania indiscriminately killing tourists and I guess if we are talking senseless mass murder history tells us of Europe's bloody past. The many more that don't come immediately to mind.
I found many people also asked me about the book and I found it quite difficult to explain, besides a vague answer of, it's a bit dark [and I wasn't sure if I meant Kevin or Eva] or an equally intelligent, I don't think I like it very much, along with head nodding and mmm hmm noises, I seem to have had plenty to say about it now.
On another note Sue, have you read any of Katie's new choices,are they ok with you?
Hello again, ladies
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments, Nancy - it did seem to me that Eva needed Kevin to need her, and when he indicates he does then her attitude to him changes. And we have had mass killings here, too - in city streets rather than schools, though. Definitely not an American phenomenon.
Somehow, I seem to have missed Katie's new choices - sorry. Could they be sent to me or published here? Thanks a lot.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteKatie's choices were:
Honolulu by Alan Brennert
The Professor and the Madman by Simon Winchester
Life Of Pi by Yann Martel
Hope all of you are well and enjoying the first day of winter. Our summer has certainly made itself known today, hot and windy, but life is good and is well.
Thanks, Nancy. I have tried The Life of Pi before - indeed, I'm sure someone sent me an audio version - but I couldn't get on with it. This will be a good opportunity to try again. and Simon Winchester's books are very interesting. So, thanks Katie. I look forward to the challenge.
DeleteOfficially, it's the first day of winter here, but it looks milder than it has been. Which means I haven't been out in it yet, but there's no ice on the cars so that has to be a good sign. Went to a talk on flooding last night - in connection with some Leonardo Da Vinci drawings the Queen has kindly lent our city art gallery (Leonardo did some flood prevention for the Borgias.) Anyway, it appears we've filled in the drains, the government is allowing us to build anywhere and we are all doomed. Certainly, the recent rains have led to floods and road closures - winter now looks very threatening. Nothing compared to Sandy, I'm sure.
I'm positive there's a book on Noah and the flood - I'll try to find it.
From a water logged U.K., take care ladies.
Sue, I hope you dry out soon! I understand the difficulty of road closures and flooded roads with the recent damage from Sandy.
DeleteNancy- Mother Nature is going through menopause over here. One day freezing with snow. the next weather in the 60's! But at least you get to enjoy Summer (I'm a little jealous haha)
On a brighter note here, Franklin just got hired at the Veteran Affairs Hospital in Philadelphia! We don't know when he will start but he submitted his paperwork for his background check and physical a week or two ago. So hopefully he'll be starting by January! We're quite excited!
Much love to you and your respective husbands :-)
Hello Ladies,
ReplyDeleteI’m sorry that this novel seemed so difficult for you both. I’m not terribly sure what I expected. It caught my curiosity.
I tell Franklin all the time that there is no such thing as a horror movie any more. What is produced these days, are gore movies: designed to throw blood and guts at the audience until vomiting is induced. That being said, I’ve finally found a horror movie (for this book has been made into a movie). While reading “Kevin”, I got chills. I have never felt fearful anxiety like this from a novel. Shriver may have been trying to write about a mother not loving her offspring, but how can we blame Eva for not loving something that just seemed truly evil? I feel like Shriver made Kevin evil, and that is why Eva did not love him. She was unable to love this child that was inherently wicked. Eva was not a character incapable of love since she had such affection for Franklin and Celia. If Kevin had a few mildly cumbersome characteristics and Eva didn’t love him, then this would constitute the theme the novel promised. Instead, I think we have the concept an individual recognizing pure villainy in the personality of another person. And how many people love murders like Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer? How many societies penalize individuals for hating villains? None. While I feel Shriver did not succeed in her original goal, she created a well written dramatic novel.
Now onto Eva. Neither of you liked her and I can understand your reasons why. The thing about Eva I liked was her extravagant vocabulary. She is portrayed as an extremely intelligent and cultured woman. But yes, Nancy, she is extremely “self-righteous-condescending-and superior” which makes her difficult to like. I agree, Sue. Eva was constantly trying to justify her actions and it did not put the reader on “her” side. I also did not see the deaths of Franklin and Celia coming. What a harrowing surprise! Eva seems to take their deaths so quietly. And for a mother who “didn’t love her child,” she certainly gives a lot of herself to Kevin’s needs (his lawyers and visiting him in jail). She doesn’t stand up for herself at trial against Mary Woolford which makes me quite cross. Yes, Mary lost a daughter. But Eva lost a daughter, a husband, AND a son (albeit to the penal system and not death). If not for Kevin’s sake, then at least for the memory of Franklin and Celia, Eva should not have sabotaged herself during her civil trial. So there were a few minor things I like about Eva, but yes I mostly did not like her either.
(cont'd)
(couldn't fit it all in one post)
ReplyDeleteNancy, I noticed very little slander against Americans in regards to mass killings. Maybe I missed them? What I did notice is the bulk of the slander coming from Eva and Kevin in regards to the personalities of Americans. I’m afraid I agree with a good deal of Eva’s dinner speech to Kevin. On page 278, Eva says, “Americans are fat, inarticulate, and ignorant. They’re demanding, imperious, and spoiled. They’re self-righteous and superior…..” There is an attitude that Kevin brushes over during his interview with Jack Marlin. He says, “My view runs, life sucks; tough luck.” I think Eva makes mention of it too. Many people (Americans) cannot handle the idea that terrible things happen. There must always be someone to blame. Mary Woolford sued Eva as if that would compensate for the death of her daughter. Eva had nothing to do with Kevin’s killing spree, so why does she pay the bill? It’s like the people who sue McDonalds for “making them fat.” What made that person fat was going to McDonalds every day for breakfast, lunch, and dinner! Nobody ever wants to take responsibility for their actions or accept that there isn’t always someone or something to blame for tragedy. In a long winded answer to your question Nancy…. I was not bothered by the slander against Americans. I am happy to be an American. I just wish that some of my co-patriots would work a little harder to make us look better in the eyes of the world at large. (Sorry that was my soapbox)
On a random note…. The most difficult thing about this novel was seeing my husband’s name muttered with such affection by another woman… It made me feel a little awkward (haha!)
The jury is still out for me. I don’t know if I liked this novel or not. I also was not 100% able to recommend or not recommend it to others. Thank you both for tolerating my choice. I hope The Book Thief is better (or else you may not accept any more of my suggestions Haha!)
Hello Ladies,
ReplyDeleteThree cheers for Franklin.....Chong that is !!! Great news, I hope all goes well for him.
This book seems to have pressed a few of our buttons. Yes!! it is what a good novel is meant to do I know.
I agree with you Katie, Eva's character is highly intelligent and shows how gifted Shriver is with language. She was also a loving mother to Celia so your comment that she instinctively sensed Kevin's evilness is possible.
I also feel your frustration at her seeming to sabotage herself at the civil trial.Kevin seems always to be the constant focus in her mind and not what happened to Celia and Franklin.
Australian society has also become very litigious in recent years.
It seems my son Sam spends a lot of his study time learning how not to get sued instead of how to save lives. I'm sure this is the same in most professions these days.
My random and unsettling note: Sam has returned from Uni with a new hobby........for the past week I have been listening to the THUCK of arrows hitting their target....in fact I can hear them right now. I have been educated in the difference between a crossbow, a compound bow and a long bow and of course, arrow quality. I hope this hobby passes soon like his obsession with dinosaurs when he was eight!!!!!!
Congratulations to Franklin. Marvellous news.
ReplyDeleteBack to the book - was it because she blamed herself for Thursday that Eva did not defend herself? That she was, in fact, needing to be punished?. Did Kevin anticipate this? One imagines so. He had the timing and the defence all worked out, so he probably had this worked out, too. Do we think people like this really exist?
I'm so sorry about Sam's timing with the arrows, Nancy. On the plus side, hand-eye co-ordination must be improving and all that walking to and fro from the place where he's shooting to the target must be good exercise. Boring in the end, one hopes. Unless he's practising for the national team?
Great the children are home, though. Will they be staying for Christmas?
Looking forward to The Book Thief, Katie. Thank you for your recommendations, which are certainly taking me out of my comfort zone - as they should.
I think Eva does blame herself for Thursday, although I do not understand why. No amount of hugs and "mommie's love" was going to change who Kevin was. Eva dramatically decreased her work hours to be a stay at home mom. She spent time for him, cared for him, and he still want no parts of her. But I think maybe Eva is just a self-deprecating individual and Kevin's actions must be her doing. I don't know if Kevin anticipated Eva's reaction. She never really did anything before Thursday that would suggest this type of personality. Or at least I don't think there was. And Sue, I hope people like Kevin don't exist (although they probably do).
ReplyDeleteWhile I've never met Sam, I'm sure he not unhinged like Kevin. The archery fad I think has sprung from all The Hunger Games excitement. It could be worse. My brothers have gotten into bow hunting. At least Sam is aiming at a target and not some poor animal. But Sam's timing is a little ironic.
Hopefully The Book Thief is quick so it doesn't interrupt any family time during the holidays. Nancy, Did you get my introduction for The Book Thief?
I think you're right Sue, Eva does blame herself for Kevin's actions on Thursday,[mothers are notorious for taking on the guilt of their children whether it is warranted or not.]
ReplyDeleteIt does appear she attempted to do all she could to be a good mother to Kevin as you say Katie, even though I believe she knew how evil he was, she could not forgive herself for not feeling connected to him and for not loving him. I don't know either if Kevin anticipated Eva's exact reaction, although he seems to accept her visits without question. After killing her husband and daughter I wouldn't have thought he would have anticipated that, although it gave him more opportunity to torture her.
I have received your post Katie, on the Book Thief I'm just a little slow on the upload. I have started the book and am enjoying so far.
One of the things I love about our little book club is sometimes reading novels I would not normally read and even if I don't like them, I really have to think about why? What is it that caused that reaction in me. I have read many books, but I find the ones I discuss with others are the ones we read. Thanks ladies, you enrich my reading with your insightful comments so much.